Prof. Dr. Rudi Zagst unterrichtet Mathematik am Lehrstuhl für Finanzmathematik an der Technischen Universität München (TUM). Dort gibt es unter anderem den renommierten Masterstudiengang Finance and Information Management. Wir unterhalten uns mit ihm darüber, wie es um die Frauenquote am Department Mathematik bestellt ist. Mit Prof. Zagst kooperieren die Fondsfrauen demnächst in einem Schulprojekt zur finanziellen Bildung. Darin sollen Schülerinnen und Schüler der Mittel- und Oberstufe über Geldanlagen und Altersvorsorge aufgeklärt und ihnen das notwendige Finanzwissen vermittelt werden, um in diesen Bereichen verantwortungsvoll und erfolgreich agieren zu können. Eine digitale Info-Veranstaltung mit Prof. Rudi Zagst und Fondsfrauen-Beirätin Evi Vogl zu diesem Schul-Projekt findet am Donnerstag, den 18. Juli, von 12:30 – 13:30 Uhr statt.
Mr. Professor Zagst, what topics do you cover in your lectures?
I teach financial mathematics, covering all things related to finance and quantitative methods – from capital investment to investment strategies and all questions related to financial and insurance mathematics. Mathematics for teaching degrees is only taught as part of service teaching for other departments in our faculty.
What is the percentage of women in your financial mathematics lectures?
Im Bachelorstudiengang Mathematik haben wir im Prüfungsjahr 2023/24 genau 30,6% weibliche Studierende. Im Master-Studiengang ist die Frauenquote etwas höher, dort sind es in diesem Prüfungsjahr 36,1%. Auch im längerfristigen Zeitverlauf ist der Frauenanteil im Masterstudiengang höher als im Bachelorstudiengang – der Unterschied liegt im Schnitt bei rund 2-6 Prozentpunkten. Dieser Prozentsatz spiegelt sich in meinen Vorlesungen ziemlich genau wider.
How surprising that the percentage of women is higher in the master's program than in the bachelor's program! Do you have an explanation for this?
Yes, I was also surprised when we analyzed the numbers. I think this is because the master's program attracts international students, as they have the opportunity to switch universities for their master's degree. The proportion of women in mathematics seems to be higher abroad than in Germany. Another explanation could be that female students gain more confidence in their abilities during their bachelor's studies and then apply to the elite universities.
What is the level of interest among female students in other business administration programs?
I only have specific data from our department. However, we know that in areas like bioinformatics and biomedical computing, the proportion of women is higher.
How has the proportion of women in mathematics evolved?
When I think back to my student days, maybe 10% of my classmates were female; in biology, for example, the proportion was significantly higher. Now we have about one-third women in our department, which is a positive development that I am very pleased about. But our goal is to achieve a balanced ratio, i.e., 50% female students in mathematics.
You have compiled good data. It is clear from them that the proportion of women in your department fluctuates greatly over the ten-year period from 2014 to 2024. In the first-year admissions in the master's program, the proportion of women fluctuates between 25 and 50%. Why is that?
Unfortunately, I do not have a plausible explanation for that. The 2017/18 academic year was a statistical outlier, as the ratio was balanced at 50:50. Before that, we had a continuous increase from about 25.8% to 39.6% in 2016/17. Then came the outlier in 2017/18. After that, the proportion of women consistently remained between 34% and 42%. One possible scenario for the increased number of admissions in 2017 could be related to the fact that students who entered the G8 school system in 2004/2005 graduated in 2012. These students could have completed their bachelor's degree by 2016 and then enrolled in a master's program. Thus, 2017 would be a year with a particularly high number of students from the first G8 cohort starting their master's studies. But that is, of course, very hypothetical. As a mathematician, I would rather draw a trend line and ignore the outliers. And I am pleased that the proportion of young women in our department is tending upwards, even if only slightly.
Can you detect performance differences between male and female students?
When I look at the average final grades of male and female students, the men's grades are marginally higher than the women's. But I would say this is statistically insignificant. So, when women enter the field of mathematics, they are just as successful! I was positively surprised to see that although women made up only 36% of admissions to the master's program, they accounted for 42% of the master's degrees awarded. This shows that more women than men complete the program once they start; they see it through to the end!
Far fewer women pursue a doctorate in mathematics compared to men. Do you have any idea why this is?
Currently, the proportion of women enrolled in the first semester of a doctorate is 31%. This is roughly equal to the proportion of first-year students, which is 30.6%, but it is lower than the proportion of women starting the master's program (36%). However, at the Chair of Financial Mathematics, we have had a 50% ratio in doctorates at one point. We have many conversations with prospective female doctoral candidates; motivation and confidence in one's abilities are big topics. One doctoral candidate I had many discussions with eventually started her doctorate with encouragement and completed one of the best dissertations in our department. She is now successfully working in the industry.
I do not believe that young women have less mathematical understanding, but rather that they often have different life plans than young men. Many want to gain work experience after their studies before starting a family. A doctorate can easily take 3-4 years. By then, women would be around 30. If they then want to gain practical experience, their first child would come around age 35 – many plan differently.
What is the situation in the professoriate?
Among the professors in our department, the proportion of women is 24%, which is unfortunately not at the level we desire. However, we are constantly striving to increase this ratio.
Was tun Sie am Department, um mehr Frauen für die mathematische Forschung zu begeistern?
Firstly, I would like to say that we are pleased to have around one-third women in the program. That is a lot considering where we started. I will be very happy when we reach 50% women. We do a lot to encourage and motivate young women. Those who enjoy it should take the opportunity to develop their research spirit with us. I also try to relieve some of the stress regarding time management for women. I tell them: "You will work at least until age 67, and the overall working time is likely to be longer; thus, even with the time for a doctorate, the overall working time in the profession is not necessarily shorter." With this, I might be able to mitigate some, but not all, reasons why women might NOT pursue a doctorate. And fortunately, many more men today are involved in childcare than before. I find that a very positive development.
Another aspect I proactively offer: We work a lot with the industry. This provides young women (and men) the opportunity to work with companies during their doctorate to gain practical experience. This way, we can at least partially address the biological imbalance.
What do you do organizationally in your department to promote equality and equal opportunities for women?
We go into schools and try to introduce young women to mathematics at the transition from high school to university, encouraging them to study math. Even during onboarding at the university, we place great emphasis on equal opportunities for men and women from the start.
We also have the mandatory institutions like the women's representatives who ensure equal opportunities and protect women in all possible study and life situations.
Außerdem versuchen wir durch spezielle Schulungen Studierende, Promovierende, Professorinnen und die Menschen, die in den Service-Bereichen arbeiten, zu sensibilisieren. Sie sollen die speziellen Bedürfnisse von Frauen wahrnehmen, um dann entsprechend reagieren zu können. Auch in den Formulierungen bei Vorlesungen und Vorträgen legen wir Wert darauf, dass genderneutral formuliert wird.
Do you offer special programs for women?
Yes, we have a program called "Facettes of Mathematicians," which is a discussion round that covers special topics for female mathematicians. We also have special fireside evenings where young women can discuss their fears and wishes among themselves.
At the university, we have a childcare room to signal to women: You are welcome even with children! For example, we have a young woman from Africa with two children, whom we supported with sponsorship funds, and she will soon graduate. I am very proud that we managed that.
In our "Women in Mathematical Science" program, female doctoral candidates have the opportunity to present their research results internationally. For example, we reimburse travel expenses when our researchers are invited as speakers to symposiums and conferences.
Our scientific program "Women in Probability," where international female probability theorists present their research, also shows: It works!
Currently, students from our Finance and Information Management program are planning a new series called "Women in Finance and Digitization." This initiative aims to recognize the outstanding achievements of women in finance and digitization and the progress made by exceptional women in these fields. It is a new opportunity to present much-needed female role models in finance and promote dialogue about diversifying the talent pipeline and addressing the notorious gender gap in this sector. It is planned to start with two women from the Fondsfrauen.
And soon, we will be collaborating with the Fondsfrauen to bring financial literacy to schools. Here, we aim not only to impart financial knowledge but also to encourage female students to study math by showing them that many women work successfully in the financial sector.
What motivates you in this?
I am passionate about motivating young women and encouraging them to believe in themselves more. In the selection interviews for our Finance & Information Management program, we see that women are often much more reserved than men. Men claim to be able to do many things; when you dig deeper, the women often have more skills but do not mention them. I want to encourage women to be more confident. Men might see it more as a game.
I want to tell the Fondsfrauen: Keep your eyes and ears open, and encourage all young women with potential and interest to study, especially in the STEM fields! Every percentage point that rises here is a success. Feel free to send them to us for a conversation. At the department, we are happy to provide information and encouragement! However, it must be responsible encouragement, as too much pressure is also not good. If someone is not talented in mathematics, I am happy to show other paths that might be better for the individual. I would not push anyone into our program if I knew it would not make them happy and could cause problems. We have noticed an increase in mental health issues among students recently. That is really unfortunate. With all the support and motivation, we must also ensure that we give young people good, suitable recommendations.
What tips can you give to young women?
Of course, you need to be good and motivated to advance – that applies to both women and men. But networking is also important. Supervisors should recognize and promote their employees' talents. Then doors will open. It takes door openers, but then you must recognize and seize the opportunities bravely. I especially want to emphasize this to women.
Thank you very much for this interview and the accompanying motivational boost!
Anke Dembowski is a financial journalist and author of various investment fund-related and other financial books. She is also a co-founder of the "Fondsfrauen" network.